Galadriel und Finarfin

[Finarfin]

habt ihr euch eigl schon mal überlegt was es für Galadriel bedeutet wieder Westen zu sein? immerhin sieht sie nach fast 4 ZA wieder ihren vater. und wer weiß, wieviel geschwister sie noch hat.

wie würdet ihr euch das wiedersehn vorstellen?

mfg finarfin

falls den thread schon gibt sry, hab nichts in der suchfunktion gefunden.

[Salmar]

Zu Galadriel gibts sicher schon einen Thread, zu Finarfin und Galadriel wahrscheinlich noch net.

Naja, bei Bedarf kann ja ein Mod. das Ganze verschieben.

Zum Thema selbst: Es wird auf jeden Fall etwas besonderes sein, wenn sie ihn wieder trifft, ich glaube allerdings nicht, dass Finarfin in der Zwischenzeit noch weiter Kinder in die Welt gesetzt hat. Es wird uns zwar nichts darüber erzählt, aber es ist ja bekannt, dass Elben nicht sehr viele Kinder haben und Feanor ist mit sieben Söhnen die absolute Ausnahme. Ich denke daher nicht, dass Galadriel noch weitere Geschwister haben sollte.

Und wie das Wiedersehen aussieht, kann sich jeder selbst ausmalen. Eine Ahnung bekommt man vielleicht auch bei der Stelle im Silmarillion, als das Wiedersehen zwischen Finrod und Finarfin beschreiben wird - wenn auch nur in gerade Mal einem Satz. Aber Finrod und Galadrile sind sich vom Charakter her ja ziemlich ähnlich: Er galt als sehr weise und brannte darauf, ein eigenes Reich in Mittelerde zu gründen, genau wie Galadriel auch.

[Finarfin]

Eine Ahnung bekommt man vielleicht auch bei der Stelle im Silmarillion, als das Wiedersehen zwischen Finrod und Finarfin beschreiben wird.

wo wird das beschrieben?

und wo sollte dass stattfinden? in tirion nachdem finrod von den hallen mandos zurückgekehrt ist???

mfg finarfin

[Salmar]

Ich hab jetzt den Wortlaut nicht mehr im Kopf, aber es heißt in etwa "Aber Finrod wandert mit seinem Vater Finarfin unter den Bäumen von ??" Die Stelle folgt gleich nach dem Tod Finrods in Saurons Kerker, in der Erzählung von Beren und Lúthien.

[Finarfin]

hm ich such nachert ma

aber warum keine kinder mehr. finarfin hatte doch schon 5. auf eins mehr oder weniger kommts ja auch net an.

wie is es eigl mit den elben wenn sie mandos hallen verlassen habe?

kommen sie dann in der gleichen person zurück wie sie schon davor waren?

mfg finarfin

Bearbeitet 7. Januar 2007 von Finarfin

[Avor]

Ja.

Zumindest wenn man sich an der letzten uns diesbezüglich bekannten Quelle orientiert, die im Zusamenhang mit Glorfindel in den "Last Writings" im Band 12 der HoME "The People of Middle-Earth" erschienen ist.

[Finarfin]

hääääääääääääääääääääääääääää?

wo steht das und was steht da? hab davon noch nie was gelesen und band 12 hab ich eigl fast komplett durch und verstanden.

mfg finarfin

[Avor]

In der Tat...

GLORFINDEL

In the summer of 1938, when my father was pondering The Council of Elrond in The Lord of the Rings, he wrote: 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin' (VI.214). More than thirty years later he took up the question of whether Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were indeed one and the same, and this issued in two discussions, together with other brief or fragmentary writings closely associated with them. I will refer to these as 'Glorfindel I' and 'Glorfindel II'. The first page of Glorfindel I is missing, and the second page begins with the words 'as guards or assistants.' Then follows:

An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf–Olórin about Third Age 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel – note how the Witch-king flies from him, although all others (such as King Eärnur) however brave could not induce their horses to face him (Appendix A (I, iv), RK p. 331). For according to accounts (quite independent of this case) elsewhere given of Elvish nature, and their relations with the Valar, when Glorfindel was slain his spirit would then go to Mandos and be judged, and then would remain in the Halls of Waiting until Manwë granted him release. The Elves were destined to be by nature 'immortal', within the unknown limits of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm, and their disembodiment was a grievous thing. It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it – unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there. We can therefore reasonably suppose that Glorfindel, after the purging or forgiveness of his part in the rebellion of the Ñoldor, was released from Mandos and became himself again, but remained in the Blessed Realm – for Gondolin was destroyed and all or most of his kin had perished. We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'. For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born, and had then lived among those Elves who had never rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar for ages: from the last years of the First Age, through the Second Age, to the end of the first millennium of the Third Age: before he returned to Middle-earth. It is indeed probable that he had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olórin. Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer.

The second essay, Glorfindel II, is a text of five manuscript pages which undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval; but a slip of paper on which my father hastily set down some thoughts on the matter presumably came between them, since he said here that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf, 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.' At the end of this note he wrote the words 'Númenórean ship', presumably indicating how Glorfindel might have crossed the Great Sea.

This name is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-17, in which the Elvish language that ultimately became that of the type called Sindarin was in a primitive and unorganized form, and its relation with the High-elven type (itself very primitive) was still haphazard. It was intended to mean 'Golden-tressed', and was the name given to the heroic 'Gnome' (Ñoldo), a chieftain of Gondolin, who in the pass of Cristhorn ('Eagle-cleft') fought with a Balrog [> Demon], whom he slew at the cost of his own life.

Its use in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings. This is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin. Also in the now organized mythology, difficulty is presented by the things recorded of Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings, if Glorfindel of Gondolin is supposed to be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell.

As for the former: he was slain in the Fall of Gondolin at the end of the First Age, and if a chieftain of that city must have been a Ñoldo, one of the Elf-lords in the host of King Turukano (Turgon); at any rate when The Fall of Gondolin was written he was certainly thought to be so. But the Ñoldor in Beleriand were exiles from Valinor, having rebelled against the authority of Manwë supreme head of the Valar, and Turgon was one of the most determined and unrepentant supporters of Fëanor's rebellion. There is no escape from this. Gondolin is in The Silmarillion said to have been built and occupied by a people of almost entirely Ñoldorin origin. It might be possible, though inconsistent, to suppose that Glorfindel was a prince of Sindarin origin who had joined the host of Turgon, but this would entirely contradict what is said of Glorfindel in Rivendell in The Lord of the Rings: most notably in The Fellowship of the Ring, p 235, where he is said to have been one of the 'lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas ... who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm.' The Sindar had never left Middle-earth.

This difficulty, far more serious than the linguistic one, may be considered first. At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance. Also it may be found that acceptance of the identity of Glorfindel of old and of the Third Age will actually explain what is said of him and improve the story.

When Glorfindel of Gondolin was slain his spirit would according to the laws established by the One be obliged at once to return to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged, and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwë granted him release. Elves were destined to be 'immortal', that is not to die within the unknown limits decreed by the One, which at the most could be until the end of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm. Their death – by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed – and the disembodiment of their spirits was an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwë, if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.

Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Ñoldor, rebels against the authority of Manwë, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm. Manwë, however, was not bound by his own ordinances, and being still the supreme ruler of the Kingdom of Arda could set them aside, when he saw fit. From what is said of Glorfindel in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings it is evident that he was an Elda of high and noble spirit: and it can be assumed that, though he left Valinor in the host of Turgon, and so incurred the ban, he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.

More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Eärendil to escape, and seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. Though he cannot have known the importance of this (and would have defended them even had they been fugitives of any rank), this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar. It is therefore entirely in keeping with the general design of The Silmarillion to describe the subsequent history of Glorfindel thus. After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandos, and Manwë restored him. He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice. At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olórin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru. That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.

(PME:377 ff.)

[Finarfin]

thx bei mir is die stelle dann irgendwie nicht drinnen

mfg finarfin

Bearbeitet 7. Januar 2007 von Finarfin

[Avor]

Wohl kaum. Es sei denn, dir fehlt das gesamte Kapitel XIII.

Ich schlage vor, du schaust nochmal nach. ;-)

[Finrod Felagund]

Ich hab jetzt den Wortlaut nicht mehr im Kopf, aber es heißt in etwa "Aber Finrod wandert mit seinem Vater Finarfin unter den Bäumen von ??" Die Stelle folgt gleich nach dem Tod Finrods in Saurons Kerker, in der Erzählung von Beren und Lúthien.

Siehe meine Signatur, da sthet das Zitat ;-)

[Finarfin]

@avor: muss leider warten bis es mir mein bruder wieder bringt

@danke finrod

aber steht das auch in deutscehn ausgabe? englische hab ich zurzeit auch nicht da.

mfg finarfin

[A_Brandybuck]

aber steht das auch in deutscehn ausgabe? englische hab ich zurzeit auch nicht da.

Nein, tut mir leid, die deutsche Ausgabe enthält diese Stelle nicht. :geist:

[Avor]

Sehr komisch, Brandy

@Finarfin

Wie kommst du darauf, man würde womöglich in der deutschen Ausgabe einfach Textstellen auslassen?

Die Übersetzung ist zwar von Krege, in diesem Fall aber völlig in Ordnung.

[Finarfin]

enthät die deusche ausgabe die stelle jetzt oder nicht?

mfg finarfin

[golwin]

Ja, natürlich!

[Finarfin]

wenns du mir mal die seitenzahl sagen könntest wär ich total happy

keinen bock dass ganze buch durchzusuchen

mfg finarfin

[Avor]

Meine Güte, Finarfin *kopfschüttel*

Du hast keinen Bock, aber wir sollen ihn haben, was?

Mal abgesehen davon, dass es im Sil ja so viele Geschichten gibt, in denen der Tod Finrods vorkommt, :ironie:

würde dir die Seitenangabe möglicherweise nichts nützen, da von der deutschen Version des Buches unterschiedliche Ausgaben existieren, deren Seitenzahlen sich nicht decken.

Das ist nicht bei vielen Tolkienbänden so, in diesem Fall aber leider schon.

Selber nachschlagen ist angesagt.

[Finarfin]

jo ich bin armer student und hab keine zeit

nja werd ich dann ma morgen machen

mfg finarfin